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Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
29
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 04:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cloak, Stealth, Invisibility mechanics, etc in most games are terrible and favor those who can use it. Those who cannot use it or do not use it often complain about it. Eve is no exception.
Cloaking Modules should reduce a ship's signature radius by 85% while active. Cloaked ships should also be able to be probed out by combat probes. Most ships would reach the "Unprobable" status and require a prober with max skills and a virtue implant set to get a 100% hit. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 17:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
As apposed to the [b[potential[/b] risk the cloaking ship is in? Like I stated earlier, stealth mechanics in almost all games are terrible and favor those who use them. I love to use my PvP guy to cloak around in a Legion and **** people over. Shut down systems by my mere presence, or force those living there to take extra measures 24/7 to ensure their safety while I can afk and come back and wait out targets. There's no risk for me and I enjoy the sheer impunity of it. Doesn't mean I don't think it's stupid or broken but I will use it because it's stupid powerful.
@Mag's
I'm willing to give up my cloaking Legion's ability to **** around cloaking with impunity to stop other people from doing the same thing to get some balance. It is very very rare for someone to have max probing skills, max skills in a probing ship, and then a full virtue implant set. Doesn't mean they can't just land on top of them and boom they're decloaked but they'll have an idea of where they are and if they use their brain they might be able to catch the ship.
If my idea when through the reverse side of this is. I'm cloaked. A ship appears 3km off me. I know that pilot has billions in implants and max skills. It would want me to pretend that i'm an afk cloaker so I can bait him out and kill him with my squad. It would be a great reversal and comedy gold. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:The problem you are having, is you're not seeing the whole picture. You don't even take local into account, when deciding upon any change. That was the mechanic my question related to.
Answer me this. When someone is AFKing, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?
The fact that you can AFK without a cloak and cause the same psychological effects, should speak volumes. But I have a feeling it's falling on deaf ears.
Local works both ways so its a terrible arguement. As quickly as local shows the prey the predators it shows predators the prey. AFKing without a cloak is a terrible idea. AFKing in a pos in a enemies' ratting system gives people the chance to park their own cloaky alt to keep eyes on you or they can attack the POS. I've seen frigates try this how they burn off into deadspace going 4km+ thinking they dont die but they do. All it takes is a prober and a sebo tier 3 BC of some kind and it's gg AFKer.
Let's be serious. If someone is truely AFK they pose no threat, that's not the complaint. The complaint people have is you cannot tell if they are AFK or waiting for you to slip up. The only scary cloaker are the ones that can warp cloaked. Dictors with cloaks off the station are comedy and can easily be ratted around and watched. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The only reason AFK cloaking even exists is because of local, without it there is no reason to. If the cloaked ship is removed from local then there is no point for extended AFK periods, if the cloaked ship is blind to local when cloaked they must d-scan or use probes to locate ships.
TL:DR Local is the reason behind AFK cloaking.
Wrong. AFK cloaking exists in WH space. WH space has no local, then why does it happen? Because WHers add you to watchlist so to defeat the watchlist. people AFK cloak to hide their prime time in WHs. WHs have no threat of cynos or hotdrops and can control their entrance. WHers are also conditioned to work in tight knit groups because of the game dynamic of WH space. Null sec players are conditioned like hi sec and low sec players because of the game dynamic of hi/low/null. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 05:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Kirkwood Ross wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:TL:DR Local is the reason behind AFK cloaking. Wrong. AFK cloaking exists in WH space. WH space has no local, then why does it happen? Nope. Truth. There is no need to AFK cloak in Wormholes because no one knows who is actually there. That means people who live in wormholes have to be constantly paranoid and take precautions. Not so much the case in 0.0 space. Every time I enter a populated 0.0 system with my main in a normal combat ship everyone warps away from whatever activity they were doing and over to a station or POS. Then they either log off, wait me out, and/or call in several dozen people to remove my one ship. As it stands... the only way to get at the industry of a system without bringing in a sizable force of my own and laying siege to the system or to AFK cloak (thus "devaluing" local's intel) and strike when people get complacent (which they shouldn't ever be). WIth regards to the "AFKing without a cloak" that Mag was alluding to... I can fit an interceptor to perma run a MWD and fit a cyno to it... blitz into your system... then warp to a safespot and MWD off into some random direction... and do so indefinitely will little to no chance of capture. The Interceptor reduces the sig radius of the ship with the MWD on... equipping ECCMs makes more difficult to probe down... and having the right implants can increase the difficulty even further. And even if you do, by some miracle, manage to probe the inty down... it will be almost off grid by the time you come out of warp (because it's moving at 4 to 5000+ m/sec). At any point in time, the player can decide to "become active" and activate the cyno wherever he/she pleases. So no... the problem you have with cynos is with cynos... not specifically with cloaking ships. As far as cloaking specific ships go... - the only cloaking capable ship that can immediately target after decloaking is the Sealth Bomber. All other ships have a minimum 5 to 7 second delay before they can begin targeting... which itself takes another 2 to 5 seconds before achieving "lock"... which gives any ship a minimum of 5 to 10 seconds to escape before it can even be pointed (which is more than enough if a person has kept their ship aligned). - cloaking capable ships generally have lower "direct" combat effectiveness compared to their T1 counterparts. The Stealth Bomber epitomizes this as it has almost no tanking ability beyond its sig radius. This means that such ships MUST choose "unfair fights" because the odds are not good otherwise. - Black Ops ships are the shortest range "jump ship" in the game. That means they need to be VERY close to their targets to launch a strike. They also have "fuel issues" (not much capacity) which makes Black-ops drops in enemy space a logistical nightmare for amateurs.
I'm not arguing this, i'm telling you. In a wormhole I have an alt cloaked by the wh entrance. I have the sound turned all the way up. When the sound goes off I look at what's coming through. I add that pilot to my watchlist. That is my local in WH. I know that pilot is in my WH until he logs or leaves because I have eyes on the exit/entrance. This only works while I am online but playing with others who do the same thing helps us generate a "Local" for the WH we are currently in. I know other more structured WH entities do this. This is one of their tricks that help them thrive.
If you think your inty is safe from a probe out because you're going 4km+ a sec with ECCM you are wrong. You will be probed and sniped. No ship in the game flies fast enough to not be probed/sniped in this manner. A ship would need to travel around 26km+ to avoid this combo and you can't do that. There are no "unprobable" ships anymore, anything can be probed and it's not hard at all. Off grid by the time we land? Of course you will be by the first probe, but we'll align to you at full speed, hit scan, wait for it to tick down, warp squad, land in 9 seconds, lock in 2. You will have traveled 11x4 44km by the time we land to kill you. If you are afk you wont warp away and will have 0 transversal. BOOM HEADSHOT. Then we'll kill your pod because you are afk. People have tried this and they have died because it is a stupid idea. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 05:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Kirkwood Ross wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:TL:DR Local is the reason behind AFK cloaking. Wrong. AFK cloaking exists in WH space. Not for the reasons it exists in null. You're being disingenuous to say otherwise. This thread is about those null reasons. 
I cloaky slink around in Nullsec in a Legion on my PvP pilot to screw people over with no risk to myself. Personally I think there should be no local in unclaimed Nullsec, NPC Nullsec, and Local should be an Ihub upgrade that requires ISK/Day to maintain after your Alliance gets a certain Strat index. The local would then be available to those who own the system. Will that happen? Probably not.
I know when I AFK cloak or pretend to AFK cloak I do it to interrupt PVE activities and isk generation for that system and get easy kills. My 1 pilot can clear out the system or require those willing to continue on to be extra cautious and paranoid 24/7 while I don't have to put forth any effort. I think it's imbalanced. Will I stop doing it? Hell no! It's too powerful not to use. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 08:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think i'm starting to see your point Mag's. I too should propose people go about their business while we are cloaked in their systems. An Eve were I can stay cloaked and risk free from danger and then attack my helpless targets as they do their daily routines. Because a cloaked ships can't do anything, it's not like that cloaked ship can decloak and kill someone at any time.
That carrier with 5 Drone damage augs in the lows, 3 omni tracking in the meds and just enough tank to hold off the anom's DPS. Keep on ratting while we're cloaked because a cloaked ship can't attack anyone. It's not like that cloaked ships is warping around looking for you and getting into position. Nah.
Maybe that cloaked ship is AFK and you have nothing to worry about. but then again... just maybe HES RIGHT BEHIND YOU! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (yerded) |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 19:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Everyone wants to win and have the advantage in whatever they do. Very few people can look beyond personal perks and propose changes to make the game more balanced. Most of us know the cloaking mechanics in Eve are imbalanced in the favor of the cloaking ship and his allies. Most of us use this mechanic because it is so powerful. Those who rely on the mechanic won't admit it's imbalanced and fight against any change that reduces it's effectiveness.
Talking about interrupting someone's nullsec ratting or mining by putting a cloaking ship in their system because null sec should have risks. Yes, let's have a mechanic that forces a group of players to constantly exert effort to defend against something that can project it's force without risk at anytime without warning and without having to be at the keyboard. So group B has to form fleets and always work together because of an unknown threat. Group A, the cloaky group can jack off and from time to time tab over to peek in the system they are camping. If the system they are camping lets their guard down they can log in the squad, hit the target, and then leave "Risk Free".
Being in the cloaky group is easy and risk free. This coming from first hand experiance of hot dropping people. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:Kirkwood Ross wrote:Talking about interrupting someone's nullsec ratting or mining by putting a cloaking ship in their system because null sec should have risks. Yes, let's have a mechanic that forces a group of players to constantly exert effort to defend against something Stopping this here specifically. Null is intended to require this. If you prefer to not need group effort, please play in high sec.
Dont stop short of quoting me. The hunted has to exert effort and risk 23/7, why shouldn't the hunter have to do the same? BOOM HEADSHOT. People just want easy kills, myself included and that is why I do it. I'm not going to lie about it and pretend it's something grander.
Quote:Kirkwood Ross wrote:... that can project it's force without risk at anytime without warning and without having to be at the keyboard. So group B has to form fleets and always work together because of an unknown threat. Group A, the cloaky group can jack off and from time to time tab over to peek in the system they are camping. If the system they are camping lets their guard down they can log in the squad, hit the target, and then leave "Risk Free".
Being in the cloaky group is easy and risk free. This coming from first hand experience of hot dropping people. Risk free and reward free, under current game settings. As these two are equally non existent, they are in balance. While true you cannot be found under normal circumstances, you also cannot mine, shoot rats, or run missions. It is already well established they cannot shoot other players while cloaked. Those poor solo PvE ships, having such a hard time in an area designed for groups... who would expect it?
When we are cloaky camping we have alts running incursions, or mining, or generating isk for ourselves while we interrupt our targets. When we finally do attack and kill someone we scoop their wreck and get rewarded. So yeah, we are getting rewarded with zero risk. Even groups of ratters get waxed when we bring along widows and falcons to perma jam them out. Nothing like slaughtering a ratting fleet risk free while our isk chains remain uninterrupted. |

Kirkwood Ross
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 05:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sidestep more because you got nothin to stand on. |
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